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 A simple DKP system?

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Arkanoth

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PostSubject: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 08:21

With the raid on Friday, I thought I would share some of my ideas on that matter.

Morgh and I were in a very nice raiding guild, the Blades of Fortune, where we had a really good and simple system of DKP, which guaranteed to sort out items based not on luck but on participation and real need. Would it be going too far, if we applied it to those raids that are a full guild run in the future?

Here goes the system:
You get 10 points of DKP with every raid you participate in or stay online for as reserve. You also get 5 points with every new boss we manage to down. (I imagine it would start off with Attumen.) The rolling on items would be like this:
- basically people who only greed, can't roll
- those who need must place a bid in the raid chat
- the minimum bid would be 5
- the player who bids highest, gets the item
- you place your bid from the DKPs you accumulated so far
- everyone starts off with 10 DKPs
- items, that everyone greeds go for a disenchanter char and the shard will be placed in the guild bank

What do you think? I'd volunteer to list your dkp on a separate forum thread.
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Morghien

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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 09:59

You know what I think about those rules, mate. Would be nice to know one could get an item, and not only trust the computer/server to go high for you for that particular item. Only problem i see is when e.g. every ranged dps wants one item, and they all have exactly the same amount of dkp (in the beginning. Things will evolve, giving people different amounts over time). What should we do then?
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Cathleen

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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 10:32

I like the idea of knowing whether or not you get an item, but. As i see it we're way to small for DKP, we don't raid much and we don't get very far when we acturally do raid.

The system you suggests is quite reasonable and fairly easy to understand. IF we are to have a dkp system, i'll vote for that one.

My suggestion here, let's discuss this system and then in a week or two, have a poll whether or not to acturally have dkp. The system can be as good as it wants, but if the guild doesn't want dkp, then it's just not happening. Smile
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Flaura



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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 10:54

I am not active enough to have a saying in this but I can share afew of my experiences from the past.

The Dragonkill-Points system can work out well for some guilds but the system itself is mostly usefull in bigger guilds with more than 50+ active raiders. Therefore it is best to apply the system for 25 or 40-man instances. I am not trying to kill the idea before birth but the reason I am saying this is that in Karazhan or any other 10-man instance, you will generally only have one to three people needing on one item. This few people rolling on one item can easily be controlled or supervised by a masterlooter.

My humble suggestion would be to use common sense. Who's rolling on the item? Who needs it most? Who has been most active, helpfull or otherwise contributing to the guild should have first priority. You could also just state that people joining recently will not be able to compete with the veterans of the guild in an item roll. It's all up to you but having one masterlooter deciding in the end is much easier for everyone.

This is of course only my opinion based on what I have seen and learned from other guilds Razz
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Morghien

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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 11:25

Blades of Fortune didn't raid anything but kara. We were fewer people than in the Quill, and still we had this DKP system. But on the other hand, we were more active in the raiding part... so i dunno. I'm for the system in general
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Heiriga
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 11:46

Personally, I think there is only one truly fair system for us:

All who can use and need the item roll for it. Those who would get more use from the item or to whom it's a significantly greater upgrade get priority.

But maybe that's just me.
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Takmari
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 12:25

We're too small for DKP, 3 people needing an item really doesn't warrent a DKP system.

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Aaya



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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 14:05

Ok, so I'm not level 70, but I will be one day (maybe quite soon) and frankly I HATE DKP. I've been in two very large raid groups, and all DKP does is cause unrest and hostility between people. You can say now it won't, but it will.

Example:
[Item drops] two people want it, but person A wants something else that they know person B also wants, so person As bid but only to get person B to spend more DKP to guarantee person A has less DKP for the next item. Person A then has little or no DKP left and gets resentful that he had to spend so much on [Item drop] and now can't get anything for 3/4 raids.

Argue with me all you want, but I've seen this happen many many times, and it creates stupid arguements over things that shouldn't be arguements just because people become so loot focused.

I joined Sharpened Quill as you're a great bunch of people, who spend time together (shock horror!) and I wanted to see some of the dungeons I missed when I stopped playing for over a year, and the fact you don't use DKP appealed to me. I hate that system, its not valid in Warcraft as I see it as it was created for Everquest. Rolling is a good system, yes it relies on the server, and yes you get bad rolls sometimes, but at the end of the day, are you in the group to get loot, or are you there to have fun?
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Takmari
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 14:08

I have to agree with Aaya.

And my other issue with it is that by using DKP we go further into the 'serious raiding guild' area that I don't want to be in.

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Cathleen

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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 14:30

*reads through Aaya's post*
*holds the new information besides what i've heard from friends*
*realises friends was bitching and not just sharing information*

After Aaya's post, im against dkp too Razz
Well, besides the statements Aaya posted, we really is way to small for dkp. And as Takkie said, we'd be a wannabe raiding guild if we started on dkp now.

Note taht we're not dissing you Arkanoth (would result in strange dust anyway), it's good to see some suggestions that are there to change the guild in a positiv manner, whether or not it's brought to life.
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Agali
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 14:48

I don't fully support DKP either, although I realise that it is not fair if one person gets 3-4 items from a raid while others get nothing. But hey, that guy will be better at dps, healing or tanking and our raid group will work better the next time - making it easier for everyone involved to get more items.

It is no fun when a brand new Initiate member gets loot over veterans and leaves the guild - but perhaps we will have to live with that?

To solve this we COULD withdraw 5 from Initiate rolls (so if she rolls 55 it's actually 50, or 3 is actually 0), making it a bit better for "real" guild members.
But would that really be entirely fair?


We have some loot rules now, for example you may not roll on gear that belongs to another specc than what you usually use for PVE if someone else needs it. For example, a protection paladin already has the tank t4 gloves, but would like the t4 gloves for retribution for PvP.
A restoration shaman doesn't have any t4 gloves and want to use them for healing gear.
Of course the t4 token goes to the shaman. If no one is competing with the paladin he can have it, of course.

If that druid who's usually feral specced resto for a raid because we lacked healers and a gear drops that would fit his feral specc he may of course roll for it. He may also roll for resto gear unless someone else wants it - or if they agree on him doing so.
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Takmari
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 14:52

We just need to be sensible about how we dish out loot.

It wouldn't be fair to give someone who just joined, come to their first raid a drop over someone who has come to the raid alot, helped the guild get as far as it has and specifaically farmed for that one item.

It's also a bit silly to give, say me who has a spiffy epic staff, the epic staff from Curator over someone who's got a green staff.

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Agali
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 14:53

Agreed with Takmari.
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Arkanoth

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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 19:45

I hate to point it out, but having a DKP system is the exact thing to EASE conflicts. There's a online currency for you which you cannot buy elseway then with your dedication and participation. When there's even as few as 2 or 3 needers, who's to say which one of them gave more to the guild or which one of them performed better. These are entirely subjective topics. Should luck give someone priority?

In Blades of Fortune, where we succesfully used this system (one of the best, I've seen a lot of others) we had even less members than in the Quill now.

And lastly, this is not a step towards a "serious raiding guild", but towards a guild who take people seriously. Rolling on epics is... bad. If you're worrying about keeping the list up to date, I've already said that I'd take care of it.

About Aaya's concern: Yes I know one could do that, but everyone is considered to be well-informed about all of the raid's loots, so you should always keep in mind, which item you want best and what it is worth. (In other words: you shouldn't spend your DKPs mindlessly on an inferior item.)

Well anyway we seem to be outnumbered by the DKP haters, Morgh, so run for your lives! ^^
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 20:03

In my opinion were too small for a DKP.

They had one with Highland Warriors (my raiding guild on ma rogue)
but they ditched it cause people who raded often would outbid any newcomers... So getting purples for my rogue was slow and painful.

As a result:

Those who need the upgrade most should get.

So say: Tank shoulders drop,
Tank A need them more than tank B. Dicussion in Raid chat and then it's decided that Tank A should get due to greater bonus to his progress.

Therefor we get more working tanks quicker.

Just using tanks for example ^^
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Arkanoth

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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 20:07

"but they ditched it cause people who raded often
would outbid any newcomers... So getting purples for my rogue was slow
and painful."

Again something incorrect... If there's any older member in the raid group that needs the stuff you as newcomer need, then ofcourse he/she should get it over you. That's what DKP ensures. On the other hand, if you're a newcomer in rags, then the others will most likely never roll on your items, because they have a better one already. So where's the problem?
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 20:50

At first i was for the DKP system. But after reading all the posts i have
changed my mind. Im sure we can come up with a fair loot system
that suits most members.

There is however a issue that we perhaps should look into;
People signing up for a raid with no intention to stay till the end.

If there are other members that want to come and have all intention
to stay until the raidleader says its over, should they be left out for
people dropping out as they feel for it?
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Agali
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 20:54

We have not had actual end times for our raids yet, but if we start saying that the raid will last between 21 and 00, for example, those who are not sure if they can stay for the entire time should only be reserves, imo.

We must be careful, though, not to exclude members because they are, for example, 2 hours ahead of the realm time and therefor can not join a late night raid.

Also, those who can not entirely and certainly confirm their attendance should not be set up in the list.
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Aaya



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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 23:10

Arkanoth wrote:
Again something incorrect... If there's any older member in the raid group that needs the stuff you as newcomer need, then ofcourse he/she should get it over you. That's what DKP ensures. On the other hand, if you're a newcomer in rags, then the others will most likely never roll on your items, because they have a better one already. So where's the problem?

I have to put a question forward now. What happens to those that can't for RL reasons raid often? They'll never have the DKP to get an item, even though they are putting just as much effort into the raid they can attend as the other people there, so why deny them loot just because they can't be at every raid and gather imaginary points?
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Wed 06 Feb 2008, 23:49

I say we do it the easy way, if you ever want the entire guild to progress as a group and stay happy...instead of DKP, people spend gold...They bid using actual gold for the item (just gold coins, not silver and copper otherwise it gets silly)...whoever bids highest gets the item and gives the money to the raid leader, who deposits it in the bank for future use.
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Morghien

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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Thu 07 Feb 2008, 00:05

Sharpeyes wrote:
I say we do it the easy way, if you ever want the entire guild to progress as a group and stay happy...instead of DKP, people spend gold...They bid using actual gold for the item (just gold coins, not silver and copper otherwise it gets silly)...whoever bids highest gets the item and gives the money to the raid leader, who deposits it in the bank for future use.

then you have the same case as with the dkp. But with the dkp case, only imaginary things have been "lost". In a way, the guild would benefit from it, but what does the GB use money for anyways?
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Arkanoth

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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Thu 07 Feb 2008, 00:18

Hey everyone! Just forget I mentioned DKP. Leave the thread before it's flooded with even greater opinions.
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Sharpeyes



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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Thu 07 Feb 2008, 05:18

Ok...so when I DO throw lightning bolts down on the worthless mortal peons I must have created whilst drunk, should I wear this hat, or this one?
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Cathleen

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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Thu 07 Feb 2008, 10:28

How about we just ended this discussion? Make a poll and lets be done with it...
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PostSubject: Re: A simple DKP system?   Thu 07 Feb 2008, 11:21

The problem with DKP is there are people who put alot into the guild but can't get to every raid.

I put shit loads of consumables that I make from herbs I've gathered myself but I've only ever been able to get to 2 raids with the guild.

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